What to think when a clinic removes a popular blog from its own blog list when an Intended Parent is facing problems and wants to talk about them publicly? I will never understand this - surrogacy is not always a smooth process, and I think that it's better to be open and honest about what everyone goes through. It's not shameful to have a complex pregnancy, from a clinic OR an IP standpoint. Pregnancies here in the states encounter complications and unexpected costs and emotional turmoil, what is the shame of talking about it? When someone reaches out with concerns or disappointments or sadness, why is the clinic removing the blog instead of talking the concerns through? This raises HUGE red flags all over the place. I tend to look at sites that feature all "happy happy" throughout the process as dishonest, because we are all smart enough to know that it's just not true.
So, on the blogs that I will set up for my own surrogacy sites will be open to ALL bloggers going through surrogacy, the good, the bad, the ugly. We have things to talk about, and we should be able to put things out there without fear of reprisal from the clinics who are taking care of our babies and the women who are carrying them.
This has really and truly upset me, and I feel like I have to talk about it. My own blog has been removed from a site, but that's okay with me, I knew it would happen because I'm not just talking about pleasantries of the industry, but about how we can make the industry better for all involved. Doctors who have nothing to hide support this, and encourage it, and they will follow my blogs happily. We're a vast community with varying experiences. And this is a HUMAN experience and we will have HUMAN emotions, this is not just "big business" to many of us, and that needs to be recognized, not diminished.
Okay, off the soap box for today, I just have had enough of "pumpkins and flowers" and realize we all have things to talk about, so let's discuss and make this a better industry all around.
Kim
So, on the blogs that I will set up for my own surrogacy sites will be open to ALL bloggers going through surrogacy, the good, the bad, the ugly. We have things to talk about, and we should be able to put things out there without fear of reprisal from the clinics who are taking care of our babies and the women who are carrying them.
This has really and truly upset me, and I feel like I have to talk about it. My own blog has been removed from a site, but that's okay with me, I knew it would happen because I'm not just talking about pleasantries of the industry, but about how we can make the industry better for all involved. Doctors who have nothing to hide support this, and encourage it, and they will follow my blogs happily. We're a vast community with varying experiences. And this is a HUMAN experience and we will have HUMAN emotions, this is not just "big business" to many of us, and that needs to be recognized, not diminished.
Okay, off the soap box for today, I just have had enough of "pumpkins and flowers" and realize we all have things to talk about, so let's discuss and make this a better industry all around.
Kim
Kim
ReplyDeleteIt's all been done before and it doesn't work - collaborative blogging by IPs for surrogacy in India for reasons X,Y,Z. IP loyalty is at the clinic level FIRST AND FOREMOST; this we already know. Clinics only allow social media that makes them look favorable; anything negative and they will attack you ruthlessly or their paid pitbulls of which there are many out there. It's almost like professional team sports mentality. You say anything negative about my team (clinic), I kill you! (hope you have a sense of humour) This has been the reality for the past 6-7 years since the internet and surrogacy (in India) got married. I don't mean to come across as condescending if that is what you are thinking but, in all honesty, this train left the station a long time ago, and its almost nearing its final destination. Spare yourself a lot of heartache if you are just "beginning" to explore this model. Pop me an email sometime if you'd like to chat. kefi@outlook.com Regards PS - there is a strong belief that the Indian govt will ban surrogacy for all foreigners if/when it enacts its LONG-AWAITED (took 11 years but hey that's India!!) surrogacy bill. So many of these issues right now are moot. The huge issue for IPs and others who've done business in India is trying to secure their residual genetic material. That is where the current energy of the overseas IP community should be focused on.
Jon,
ReplyDeleteI've been around the block for a while, and there IS a new model approaching as we enter into Thailand, Georgia, and also grow in the USA. That's why there is a new breed of Client Managers working directly with clinics who espouse the belief of client interaction and transparency. It has taken a long time to get to this point, so I wouldn't give up just yet. I'm an advocate for the industry and for the Intended Parent, and I'm in a unique position to assist from all angles, both from within the industry and from a client/IP standpoint. I've seen the name calling and nasty exchanges through the years, all the way around, including in some of your own posts. It gets personal very quickly in some cases. However, India is not a bad place to conduct surrogacy, but there are some clinics that need to improve their standings overall. It's not that difficult to explain how the money flows all around, and clients can accept that if they are informed. The key is the informed Intended Parent. Anyone going into this needs to know that they are assuming some risk, but that they should have the knowledge of how their surrogates are housed, cared for, and to see invoices from hospitals and consulting doctors if there are problems. That part should not be rocket science. I can tell you that the clinics with whom I personally am associated will welcome questions as they can stand up as having transparent operational procedures. Rogue agencies and Client Managers of the past are going out of business, or are adopting the "new model" because they have seen what can happen. It ain't over yet. As far as genetic material goes, I'm hopeful for everyone to have resolution if they want to see their material shipped vs destroyed. I feel for those who were mid-cycle when all of this started and do not yet have their babies. I am not one who believes that India will shut down totally, btw. I do think that there will be much tighter regulations overall, and perhaps limited to heterosexual couples.
I'm not sure what you are referring to by my "nasty exchanges" but, quite frankly, it's water under the dam at this point. There is one clinic in particular that has been monopolizing the online discussion for several years now and they have engaged in the most egregious tactics to stifle any voices of reason, so yes I may have somehow been sucked into that whole quagmire, like so many others, but I do not regret any comments I have made online about anything. If you know differently by all means please tell me. I will say this though, this clinic in particular is the PRIMARY REASON we are where we are right now. If their clients or the general public could connect the dots and establish cause and effect, they would be SHOCKED.
ReplyDeleteBut your response and the tone is exactly what I expected. When IPs and other interested parties (Americans NO LESS!!) try to help other American IPs and others it devolves into a pissing contest full of rhetoric about standards and integrity and the good people versus the "bad people". Trust me Kim, I have seen this movie a thousand times and I know the ending. Anyways, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and attempts to bring integrity to the international surrogacy business. Really I do. Cheers
There's no pissing contest in my view, I do not engage in them, unless you consider frank discussions as such. I find that people tend to come out as exactly who they are through such exchanges. My single goal is to educate and provide safe options for people who desperately want to build a family, and to know that the women who give their bodies for this noble effort are compensated fairly. If that's a crime, well..
DeleteThank you so much for posting this. I think Intended Parents like myself need to know that if you see absolutely ZERO negative posts about a clinic, any clinic, that should be a warning in and of itself. The realities of infertility means that not all clients are going to go home happy.
ReplyDeleteI think that clinics and surrogacy companies alike to realize that a client posting that they are having a problem is an opportunity to not only enter a dialogue with that particular intended parent and hopefully come to a resolution that is in everyone's best interest, it's also an opportunity to educate other intended parents about the challenges they may face in this process. Our feelings are shaped so much by our expectations that it's in everyone's best interest that parents know what to expect so they can tailor their expectations and understanding accordingly.
Rhy and Drew
DeleteThe US is the gold standard for these types of services, certainly not because the US is technologically superior in the arena of IVF (it is not), but because the legal and ethical checks and balances in the US are more transparent and binding. A US fertility clinic that cuts corners or has lapses of any sort will face the full brunt of the US legal and regulatory system. If a US provider is accused of fraud or malpractice the provider could be destroyed both financially and professionally. And whistleblowers are encouraged and will be afforded the full protection of the legal system if anyone at any point suspects fraud and exposes it. An IP in America can meet the surrogate, egg donor, be present at ultrasounds, speak with all principles involved at any step of the journey, etc. So yes, in such a perfect system, it is possible to have the type of holistic experience you mention. A continuous cycle of kaizen to help consumers navigate the model, provide feedback, and ultimately to allow the providers to fix their issues. Agreed.
But overseas, there are NO checks and balances. None, zero. The Western clients are not in any position of power to demand anything, least of all transparency or accountability. There is no verification of negatives, miscarriages, hospitalizations, etc. The relationship becomes one based purely on trust and the assurances of others who have gone through the process, the vast majority of whom are people with positive experiences not negative. So the vetting process of a foreign clinic is grossly skewed from the get-go. Anyone new will only get a blast of positivity, few will hear any negatives as the negatives are not published or those people have unplugged and are still recovering from their traumas. Adding to this confusion are the paid agencies and facilitators, typically First World outfits who by their participation endorse the entire process and give the unsuspecting clients a false sense of legitimacy. I can't emphasize enough the damage done by the Western support providers in this model. For many IPs, they pour their trust and savings into the hands of these business people, thinking well they are American or Spanish so of course they would never do anything unethical or scam a fellow countryman. Which is quite naive actually because some of these elements are as base as their Indian/Georgian/Thai/Mexican/>insert nationality< employers. Key operative word: employers. A sales pitch is a sales pitch; nationality is meaningless really. Money and greed do not have a nationality.
I don't mean to ramble but my point is unless an agent or facilitator is resident in the country where the services are taking place and is physically present for all procedures, then transparency and accountability are impossible when dealing with overseas providers. What that provider is really doing, or NOT DOING, is truly unknown to the IP AND the facilitator/agent who are typically 8,000 miles away.
Thank you for taking the time to reply, Jon. I think that no matter where you go surrogacy is a risk. I absolutely agree that there are risks to international surrogacy. However, I think there are risks domestic surrogacy as well. While I'm sure that many US surrogacies go off without a hitch there are some horror stories here in the US equal to some of the ones found overseas.
DeleteIn my mind what's important is that intended parents are informed about the risks and then can make choices which work best for them and their family.
You're right the US route is certainly no utopia. But let's be frank about this, the issues in the US typically involve legal battles between the pregnant surrogate and the commissioning IPs. Overseas, this is typically almost never an issue. So yes, both have their pluses and minuses but the foreign model, in my opinion, is inherently flawed as there is no oversight/watchdog body or legal framework to give IPs the peace of mind they need that services are being rendered properly. That's my only point. And usually when you have an agency or foreign case manager involved, the IPs place that trust into the hands of the hired gun, thinking that those principals have already done the due diligence required and have in place an oversight capacity - which is far from the truth. But do IPs ask these tough questions to their agencies or facilitators, no never. They ASSUME that this is being taken care of but the reality is most of these people are just collecting referral fees and parroting whatever the clinics tell them. They have as much ability for oversight as the IP does. So when you say parents should be "informed about the risks", I'm not sure who is going to do the informing. Certainly not the agency or facilitators, they are selling you a product. You will not hear any negativity from them. The US govt doesn't get involved - their line is "caveat emptor". Ditto for the foreign govts. Hired lawyers overseas - tough one, I can't speak for too many countries but I know for India one is really scraping the barrel there. Most of the lawyers are in cahoots iwth the clinics.
DeleteR&D, not to belabor the point - I understand of course your issues and what you are going through and am sensitive to that, but I also can't sugar-coat things. It is people who have the negative experiences who need to speak out more. That is the only way that IPs can truly understand the "risks" as you mention.
I don't think anyone here is saying that bad things don't happen overseas. No one is saying things don't happen here in our own country with regards to the medical field, think of all the doctors committing social security billing fraud, as one example. Stuff happens. Everywhere. However, a few bad seeds do not mean that the entire crop of apples is rotting. India is a different place, with different ways of operating. This is something that every IP I work with understands up front. This isn't a walk in the park for everyone, but just because something is difficult, does not mean it is not worth doing. Having a CM who travels to the country regularly, who has a established relationship not just with the clinic but with the US Embassy and attorneys, who doesn't drop you at contract, or who doesn't charge upon layers of charges already in a price package can make the roller coaster easier to take. There are some out here who care about the whole package, not just a sales pitch. I'm sorry that your own experiences have not been positive, but do remember, there are many beating hearts involved in this, and we all do want the best outcomes.
ReplyDeleteOur outcome was actually quite favorable. And I'm not bragging btw, just letting you know that some people have had success and are critical at the same time; there is nothing wrong with what many see as a contradiction in the surrogacy community. Very few but they are out there. In fact it is precisely those types you should seek out as they have no vested interest financially in the model and yet their point of view addresses the concerns from an exclusisvely IP perspective, which if I understand correctly is one of the princples of your business.
ReplyDeleteHaving successfully completed surrogacies in the US and India, I just posted page with a comparison of the two processes on my blog. I try to be fair and hope it will be helpful to people trying to decide amongst the current options.
ReplyDeletehttp://rockandledge.com/blog/domestic-vs-international-surrogacy/
Nicely done Rock and Ledge. I think we'd all probably opt for US Surrogacy if it was an affordable option. It is just so far out of reach for most. Traveling halfway around the world for this process is hard, but as you stated, the facilities and care are equal to that in the US. I agree with that, though sometimes the hospitals are not as fancy as ours, I have found that they have the same equipment and trained nurses and staff as we have here in the states. It's just a different way to achieve a wonderful goal without breaking the bank totally. Also, I really do feel that the surrogates themselves benefit more from the compensation in India - these women have nothing else to turn to for any sort of true financial earnings.
DeleteI will need to remove posts listing any parent's name who I do not personally know and/or have permission to speak about. Jon, please be careful, there is protection of the names of donors and surrogates too. And in the US, we do have regulations in place with regards to divulging of any personal medical information, and that includes any client or donor or surrogate that comes my way. All records are secure and protected, that just is not fair to pander about because you have a personal problem with someone else.
ReplyDeletemy blog was removed from "a clinics" blog list even before i had decided to leave "the clinic". And all i wrote was...."need to research as to why 19 embryos and 5 surrogates have not worked" i was removed after that blog. however, my changing clinics to Corion was a smart move on my behalf :) so in saying that im now glad im not on any clinics blog list and people can follow my up's and ALOT of down's if they choose to :)
ReplyDeleteI'm glad your happy, and hopefully successful with the new clinic. There's no one doctor or clinic or country that's right for everyone, and each individual experience is unique. But, when there are a handful of agencies and clinics who have repeated problems, there is a red flag that's thrown.
DeleteKim Hendrx
I think you will find blogs have been removed as IP's have gone to other clinics or IP's have chosen to start up their own businesses. We have had negatives...up's and downs, we had other IP's who lost babies had lots of issues (blogged about it) and never were deleted. Fair enough if you want to go to another clinic or be involved in a business that promotes other clinics but I don't see why people need to put another clinic or country down to make another clinic or country look better.
ReplyDeleteHey, I'm very happy that my blog was removed, but to have others asking me why theirs was removed while still going through the process with multiple complications and concerns and having NO ties to other clinics personally, what does that say? And, it's happened to more than one person (with individual comments also being asked outright to be removed). There is no ONE clinic or country that fits every person, and I think it's important that people feel as secure as they possibly can during this often uphill battle. Talking through issues is very important, and it gives people education on being prepared for bad things that MIGHT happen. No one who comes to me who says "I have 30k and that's IT" is prepared to enter into surrogacy, and I tell them that straight out. We ALL know that this could get really expensive, but when that happens I think the clinics and agencies need to do whatever they can to ease the minds and questions that arise with the IPS and their families. Not run away from it, provide the requested information. I'm not "putting down" a specific clinic OR country, rather speaking in overall terms about the operations of MANY that I've been encountering from all kinds of IPs from all countries. One or two complaints are easily understood, but loads and loads? That means there is a problem.
DeleteThe blog in question has a link to another clinic, big deal, completely paranoid and very rude of SCI to remove their blog.
DeleteLet's be honest here.....there are always so many different sides to a story and the surrogacy journey is such a difficult route for IP's and their families alike. Whether the clinic is in India or Thailand there will still be problems like there are with the Western world of medicine.....having a baby through surrogacy means you have little control and communication is hampered by so many things not just the time difference but also the surro mum's wishes for privacy etc, clinic's privacy protocols and whole array of other reasons....for example if the oby/gyn is treating the surro mum and is part of the hospital not part of the clinic or agency that you utilised for surrogacy this is even more difficult for the IP's as the doctor doesnt have a relationship with the IP's....
ReplyDeleteThere are ways to make this process a little easier by encouraging communication and details from the clinics. This will never be fully westernized, which is fine, but having expectations of honest billing practices should be a no brainer.
DeletePersonally the good communication throughout the process and the treatment of the surro mums were the crucial points for me to go with the clinic I chose in New Delhi.......as the delivery time approached I became more anxious even though I am an ex nurse and probably understand a fair bit more than the lay person. My clinic (SCI) was compassionate and understanding.....I know I didnt listen to some of the things told to me due to the lifelong dream about to come true. I reminded myself about this later and the extra costs that included items that were not part of the standard package.....I think if people reflected on that and went back to pricing schedules ....my husband and I had built fat into our budget taking into account some of those non standard items...of course when we had done this we did so months before the delivery....again my hubby reminded me of that.....I am so happy to be a Mummy finally to our three bubbas after so many years of heartache and IVF in Australia. I will always be grateful to our clinic and our surrogates....they made our dream come true
DeleteOh come on now, the surrogate never demands her right to privacy by saying a medical report can't go to an IP. She may say she doesn't want an IP present at a scan because she's shy, fair enough, but you're believing the party line if you think a surrogate's right to privacy is what prevents IPS from getting the medical information they should get as paying customers. OBGYNs are not employed by the hospital, they are employed by the clinic. Don't compare this with all clinics in India, and certainly not Thailand, The amount of medical information given to IPs by the doctors in Thailand is everything you would get if you were pregnant yourself, refreshingly phenomenal.
Delete